Transcript: Podship Earth Episode 50: COASTIE
JARED BLUMENFELD: Welcome to Podship Earth. This is your host, Jared Blumenfeld. This week, we look at how fisheries enforcement, the creation of strong marine protected areas, and ending subsidies provide real solutions to the fact that 90% of the world's fish stocks are now overexploited or depleted. As we discover in this episode, fish is the main source of protein for a quarter of the world's population and sustainable fisheries are essential to the livelihoods of billions of people in coastal communities. If we stay on our current course, we'll push one of the planet’s prime food sources beyond the limit. I meet up with Meaghan Brosnan, the marine program director of Wild Aid, a very effective organization founded to reduce global consumption of wildlife products and to increase local support for conservation efforts. Meaghan started her career as a federal law enforcement officer in the US Coast Guard operating in the Eastern Pacific and Alaska and ultimately became the deputy chief of the Coast Guard's Living Marine Resources Enforcement Program. She earned her bachelor’s degree from the US Coast Guard Academy and has a master's in marine affairs. I start by asking Meaghan how she ended up in the US Coast Guard.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Well, I knew I wanted to be a marine scientist. I was born and raised in Connecticut and the Coast Guard Academy was an hour down the road and has a fantastic marine science program and promises adventure and travel and you know, saving people in the oceans. And then the coast guards sent me to Alaska, and I was a fisheries enforcement officer also on a ship based out of Cordova, which is a small fishing community. I loved it and I knew I liked to eat fish, but I didn't really understand the interplay between the management requirements, how do you make sure there's fish for the future, getting to know the people who really depend upon it, and also understanding the coast guard's role in, you know, making sure that the people are following the rules to make sure that there's fish for future generations.
JARED BLUMENFELD: I didn't even know really that the Coast Guard did fisheries enforcement.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: We are the federal cops on the oceans. So, making sure that the fish that are being caught our legal and you can fish during that time, using the gear that's required, during an open season, you have a permit, et cetera.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, when you'd be on the boat, let's say in Cordova in Alaska, what kind of does your day look like? How does it, is it on your boat or on in someone else's boat?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So, getting on board a fishing boat in Alaska involves coming from your nice, relatively comfortable, 225 foot cutter, getting into a tiny 12 foot rib during, you know, swelling seas, having to time the jump to make sure that you get into the boat and not in the water next to the boat, being transported with your team alongside a fishing boat and reversing that process hopefully in a way that makes you look somewhat professional by the time you get on board the fishing boat. Then, let them know that you're going to be inspecting them for the larger fishing vessels. It could take a half a day for an inspection. From the Coast Guard perspective, there's two missions. It's safety. Are they about to sink? Hopefully not. And then it's also compliance with the ocean conservation laws. And then it's also, are they catching the right species of fish that's they're supposed to, are they using equipment they're supposed to, do they have the logs that they are required to have, do they have the permits, et cetera?
JARED BLUMENFELD: How would you know, for instance, if they are the catching the fish that they're supposed to?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Lots and lots of training. So, if I as a coast guard boarding officer, go on board a vessel, let's say they weren't using some devices that protect the seabirds from getting entangled in the lines, then I would collect the evidence, put together a case package and that case package goes to the National Marine Fishery Service. And they're the ones that pulled together the evidence, you know, pursue the case, do any deeper investigation.
JARED BLUMENFELD: How do we make sure that the fish populations are managed sustainably?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: It's going to depend on the species. But in general, there's going to be areas where you can't catch fish because they might be really important nursery grounds or really important pieces of habitat and that's pretty cut and dry if you're fishing in the area, then it's illegal. So, for example, for lobster fisheries, if the female is buried, I mean they have eggs on board, you don't want to catch that lobster, you want those eggs to hatch. So they should never have those onboard. There are also just simple limits in catch. If we catch too many fish, there's not going to be enough mom and dads to make enough babies and we're not going to have fish in the future. So there's catch limitations. There is always that concern of you are catching a fish, but at the same time you catch at sea bird, a turtle or sea lion or you entangle a porpoise. So there's various different ingenious devices that prevent a seabird from snagging a piece of a baited hook or that, you know, make it almost impossible for a turtle to swallow a hook or that scare away a marine mammal from a net.
JARED BLUMENFELD: We only can enforce our laws within the 200-mile zone that we control. How does it work?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Within 200 miles the US can establish the laws. There are also fish species who rather annoyingly don't respect borders. Halibut. They travel up and down between the US and Canada all the time. There is an international commission that manages those fish species so that no single country or no single group of people take more fish than can possibly be taken. Outside of 200 miles, there are international treaty organizations where however many countries that feel they have a stake in the fishery come together and agree on the exact same sets of regulations or sets of rules that we've talked about in a collaborative manner to manage on the high seas.
JARED BLUMENFELD: I've been to the American Samoa. There is one of the largest tuna canneries in the world and I asked them like how much tuna are they canning a day. The answer is 400 tons, which is like, oh my God, I just couldn't believe that the ocean could have 400 tons a day and then you see the ships coming in and they're like jalopies. I mean it looked like they were barely floating. I talked to some of them. They'd been out at sea for months. How do we know that they're observing any of the rules?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: If this were a simple problem, right, we wouldn't have already overfished more than a third of our fish throughout the world, right? We wouldn't have declining fish stocks. But it's not a free for all. In addition to everyone getting together and saying, this is how we divide the fish, this is how much fish can be caught. They also have vessel monitoring requirements where there are vessel transponders that must be on board. There is catch documentation that has to be done that has to follow the fish off of the vessel. In some cases, there might be electronic monitoring, which is like a closed-circuit TV watching the deck for proper activity. The US Coast Guard could board a foreign flag vessel to ensure that they are following the rules. It doesn't change the fact that it is a huge ocean out there and there's not someone watching 24/7.
JARED BLUMENFELD: What was it like being a woman inspector in the Coast Guard? Was that a challenge for you?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: No. In my experience, a lot of the time when I got on board the fishing vessels, the captains tended to see that it was a woman and not give me nearly as much of a hard time as I saw them give my male colleagues. It's just one of those things where you're all wearing the same uniform, bottom line and it's a team.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Did it feel like you are making a difference?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So, my vast majority of my on the water experience was in Alaska. You met the fishermen whose livelihoods depended upon it, and you heard the stories when the fishery was not as well managed, and it was a derby and it was not safe, and they weren't getting as much money per fish. We occasionally tried to sneak up on folks and you know, see if we couldn't catch them in the act. And even with all of those steps we were taking, the vast majority of the folks that I met either had no violations, or if they did have violations, they are reasonably small ones that while important and we, you know, pursued them, weren't necessarily going to result in the fish dot crashing. Or you know, major losses of fish. Now that's not true everywhere. There are always those kinds of cases. In the United States, we decided to put this system in place that is thoughtful, that tries to take into account the best available silence. And it's not perfect. It's hard, but you see it moving in the right direction. So, like to me it was a, a story of hope and I saw the importance of what I was doing out there and I just wanted to take what I had learned and apply it to globally. I wasn't going to be able to do that in the coast guard. So, I mean, I'm still actually a reservist, so I do the one weekend a month, two weeks a year thing. The coastguard couldn't get rid of me fully.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, Megan, it sounds like you're pretty hopeful.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: I don't think you can be in my business and be a pessimist. Like bottom line, like if you're a pessimist, you can find enough reasons to think that all the fish in the world are going to disappear, right? There's plenty of room for improvement.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Taiwan has the largest fishing fleet in the world by far. And so that kind of a semi-unregulated entity, and then just imagine all the other fleets out there, right? How are they being regulated?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: You will see almost no Taiwanese vessels are trying to come or foreign flag vessels trying to come into US waters to fish illegally. It doesn't happen because the US has the systems in place generally to protect their waters and to apply strong consequences if someone is caught illegally fishing in their waters. That is the case globally. If you can work with the countries that are working very hard to protect their own waters, then you can ensure that these foreign flag vessels are not coming in and stealing their fish.
JARED BLUMENFELD: How much of the Pacific is jurisdictional as opposed to, I mean, just bull pocket?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Between a quarter and a half of the world's oceans are beyond national jurisdiction. So, there is a whole lot out there that's deemed the wild, wild west and is only managed by these treaty organizations.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Do you eat fish?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: I do eat fish.
JARED BLUMENFELD: How do you pick the fish that you eat?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: It's a combination of, do I know the person who caught the fish using tools such as the Monterey Bay aquarium Seafood Watch and the sea certifications and aquaculture or certifications. I tell folks that the easiest first step is to either do the sea certification or to buy American.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, most of the fish you buy, you know the people who caught it?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So that's a good place to be.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: It is. It is. Yes. Very lucky.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So maybe that's the ultimate, kind of buy local. So local, you know, who caught it. So, there are some aquaculture fish that you would eat?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Like anything, if it's done well, actually aquaculture can even be a benefit to the environment. For example, many shellfish aquaculture farms can actually contribute to water quality in the local area. I tend to think we're not going to be able to feed the world. In general, if we don't have some aquaculture, it's just not going to be possible. So there's more than 3 billion people worldwide that depend upon it, and that's greater than 20% of their diet. And in developing countries, that ratio is much, much greater. So, what you're looking at is the people who are most at risk are also the people who will feel the greatest impact.
JARED BLUMENFELD: As fish populations continue to drop, has fish population continued to drop?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: The price goes up in the most local, smallest scale context, the price goes up, but really for them, the size goes down and the number goes down. Right? A fisherman that once could bring in a couple of, you know, one kilo fish and feed the family and sell a couple for the day and within a day now can barely capture enough fish to feed the family for the day. And then that's, it's unacceptable.
JARED BLUMENFELD: We talked a lot about enforcement, but the enforcement is based on a regime that looks at water sustainable yield is, right? And it seems like we keep getting that science wrong.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Today, there's less than half as much fish in the water than there was in 1970. A quarter of all marine mammals and shark and ray species are endangered, six out of the seven sea turtle species. So yes, we're in trouble. It's not something that needs to be looked at lightly. The good news story is that within the US there will be more and more fish in the coming years because we're no longer overfishing. We stopped fishing at rates that are unsustainable.
JARED BLUMENFELD: And what about the rest of the world though?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Well, though on average you're still seeing fish populations drop. There are techniques for understanding when you have a little data. So, you don't have all the complex scientific systems that the US has at its disposal. There are still ways to meaningfully manage populations, right?
JARED BLUMENFELD: And that is, but that is predicated on knowing how many fish are there?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yes. But you can do it with data pore systems. So, there are systems that can do it totally based off of the size of the fish that are being landed. The volume of eggs within the fish. The evidence has shown you don't necessarily need, you know, multivariable calculus to meaningfully manage a fish dock.
JARED BLUMENFELD: That's good news, right?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Oh yeah. Super good news. The local fishermen's local communities usually know where a species might give birth or at the time of year when you might sing a lot of juveniles. Well, fish less or don't fish in those areas or during those seasons.
JARED BLUMENFELD: How'd you create that global change in behavior?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Half of all fish for human consumption is caught by small scale fishers. If you look at the total number of fishers, 90% of those are small scale fishers.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, 10% of the fishers are catching 50% of the fish.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Right. Okay. Yeah. The small scale near shore we're focused on, yeah.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Tell us a little bit about how communities are organizing themselves to help fish populations get back up and also manage the fishery sustainably.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: There's any number of examples of communities that come together and choose to close down there fishing for a period of time. There are communities that choose to give up fishing gear once they understand that there is actually an alternative gear that will still give them the catch volume that they need to catch.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, one of the places that you're focusing a lot of attention is Gabon, which is on the Atlantic coast of central Africa, right next to the equator.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So, Gabon, it has some of the largest tracks of virgin untouched mangrove forests that I've ever seen. You feel like you're in like some kind of exotic movie when you go out and control with the rangers. They take you on their patrol boat and they're just going down these narrow, jungle covered waterways with crocodiles and fish jumping and just palm trees and dense forest and it's just this like stunning green, lush place. And then you'd have to make sure you slow down because in the more rural areas, the village is still using dugout canoes with a little 40 horse when you're going up, you know, a little motor for when you're going upstream and pull in when you're going downstream. You don't want to swamp them while you're going along. And they have a semi-industrial fleet there of larger maybe 30-foot open canoes that they use nets to capture fish with. And I saw carp that were so big that I couldn't put my arms around them and six-foot Barracuda on most of the boats there were fish that size. So just this vibrant abundance there. But they're seeing signs, like less fish are being caught per day and the size of the fish, believe it or not, is going down. So you've got these early indications that you need to be catching less or you need to be maybe adjusting the seasons where you're catching. I've got a ranger named Cumba who at one point managed a couple of the industrial tuna vessels, and then he met a couple of personnel who were working on an initiative called Gabon Blue, which is a wildlife conservation society, an initiative. And he got sucked in. It was, you know, let's preserve these waters for the future of our children. And he respectfully interacts with the fishermen engaging with the folks for these small fishing camps. You know, a few small, small houses, almost usually a family unit and two or three fishing boats per location. And you know, slowly but surely working with them to enforce the laws and bring them into compliance. We seized a motor during one of our patrols because we caught folks who are blatantly breaking the law that they knew about.
JARED BLUMENFELD: How does enforcement play at that local level?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah. The first is supporting the rangers, the enforcement officers on the ground, highly motivated people, putting their lives on the line, want to see the fish for future generations. There's all sorts of very simple approaches that they can take to make themselves more effective. I have background experience in enforcement, and in that kind of work, I have a whole team of folks who were like me who have that type of experience and we mentor and train. So that's one way.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, tell us a little bit about the mangroves for instance. So, the intersection between coastal mangroves which are being cut down at alarming rates and the health of the fisheries.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: The mangroves are the nursery grounds of hundreds and thousands of species. There are indications that a scalloped hammer head sharks go to that area to spawn and to grow. There are hundreds and thousands of square kilometers of water that have all these roots interspersed with them and are just extremely safe places for fish to grow and thrive, and they need that habitat. Bottom line, the rough Atlantic Ocean coast with beating waves against a rock is not going to be a place where a juvenile fish is going to be able to survive. The vast majority of species needs sometime in these kind of nursery grounds.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, we need mangroves?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: We need mangroves, we need coral reefs. And I mean all the research shows, like again this is another area for hope is that yes the water is getting more acidified, but nature can be extremely strong in response to these things. If you give them the space, you need to protect the habitat and then it can be resilient and figure it its own way out in how to best respond to these kinds of challenges that we've unfortunately thrown at it.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, tell us about marine protected areas.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So marine protected areas is a space in the ocean that is protected and conserved. Usually, it's because there's a really important habitat or maybe a really important species in that location. So in Gabon, in that context, they actually were global leaders. They declared 30% of their waters as marine protected areas and they put forward quite a portfolio. So, a couple of the marine protected areas where we're working in are river mouths where those fish need to get into the mangroves. So, they protect those, those river miles and do not allow fishing in those mountains. So that sharks and ray fish have the chance to get into where they need to and spawn. There are areas that are offshore that are protecting humpback whale rearing habitats or unique deep seabeds and areas and seamounts areas. So a marine protected area can, it can be almost anywhere. The idea is designing it in a way that's thoughtful and then not just putting it on paper. So Gabon has established them and now they are taking steps to meaningfully protect them.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Just give us a scan of like how many marine protected areas are there? Like are there more each year? Like tell us what's happening with the marine protected area.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So, there are declarations of over 15,000 marine protected areas.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Wow. That’s a lot.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: There's a lot. So, the goal there is a conservation of biological diversity goal to reach 10% of our coastal and marine waters to be protected by 2020. We're basically there.
JARED BLUMENFELD: That’s amazing. Most of these international conventions never get that.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah.
JARED BLUMENFELD: We are in 2019 and we're nearly there? Wow.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah, so, there's a lot of really good organizations working hard on it and can't raise up your hands yet, but we're, it's going to happen. We're confident it's going to happen.
JARED BLUMENFELD: And that's all around the world, right?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: All around the world. And yeah, to help people wrap their head around it, that's about three and-a-half United States (lower 48), in terms of area. There is so many additional declarations of intentions for marine protected areas that would bring us up to five United States worth of water protected around the world. So, the problem isn't the declarations. The problem is then, okay, we've got the boundaries, we know that we need to protect this area. How do you now actually put the laws in place? How do you enforce them? How do you bring the community along with you in a way that will meaningfully protect them and have those actual benefits?
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, what are some of the elements?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: So every marine protection system needs five elements. And if you don't have one of the elements, it's not protected. So, you need to find and catch illegal actors. There needs to be policy and consequences. So, laws that actually make illegal fishing illegal and consequences for acting illegally. You need to have the community as an equal, if not leading partner in the protection of resources. And that's not just thinking of like you know, Joe Schmo coastal community, that's the fisherman, that's the, you know, the folks that are actively involved in the process and their livelihoods depend upon it. You need to empower the people who are conducting the enforcement or managing the NPA’s with training and with mentorship and just an understanding of how to go through that and you do to do all that on a balanced budget. Now what that looks like though in each location is going to vary. So, in some places you might not need a boat because maybe there's only one safe harbor and all the fishing vessels are coming back to that one harbor. So you can just hop on board there. But in some locations, you're going to need a set of binoculars to monitor your marine protected area. In someplace, you're going to want something that's based in in space, a satellite-based monitoring system, right?
JARED BLUMENFELD: And those exist?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Absolutely. Yeah.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Okay, so there are satellites that are currently protecting marine protected areas? Yes, there's a lot of protection there, but yes.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah, that's right.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Okay. That's cool.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: It is. It’s super cool.
JARED BLUMENFELD: There's more fishing boats and we need, right? When you look globally, it just seems like we have way too many boats and not enough fish.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Right now, our fish populations are crashed. We have way too many fishing vessels targeting it, right? Because of all those inefficiencies, we have lost $83 billion a year.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Wow, just because of inefficiencies?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Inefficiencies and overfishing.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Yeah, so too many boats targeting the same fish. If you had less boats, even if they caught less fish, you'd make $83 billion. Right?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: That's right. Once the fish populations rebounded. Yup. Exactly.
JARED BLUMENFELD: We have this image of Indonesia that probably we wouldn't think, wow, they're going to be leading this charge to get rid of capacity. But they are.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yup. It's always that question of if you catch a vessel that's acting illegally, what do you do with it? All right. And often the solution is like, oh well, we want to make some extra money off of this so we can keep the lights on so let's sell it. But that just puts that boat back in circulation. Yeah. Indonesia is making it a very bold choice to burn them to the water and steps like that are absolutely essential.
JARED BLUMENFELD: It seems like governments are still giving huge subsidies to keep fishing boats on the water.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: I mean, there's going to be more boats that are going to be built as long as the fishing fleets are being subsidized to the level where they are not paying the actual cost of fuel or they're not really being expected to pay taxes on the resources that they are targeting. Until you decrease that kind of subsidies, you're going to keep on getting more and more boats out there because there are totally illogical procedures in place that enable them to operate financially sustainably.
JARED BLUMENFELD: There’s a perverse incentive to have more and more.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Absolutely.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, like you get a boat and someone’s going to pay for the fuel? Taking of money, isn't there like a lot of illegal trade going on in the high seas? Did you see that when you were the coast guard?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: There's transnational organized crime and all sorts of gnarly illegal stuff out there that requires that kind of a very tactical kind of approach.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Even with fish?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Even with fish.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Wow. So, fish are up there with drugs and guns and other illegal trafficking? I had no idea.
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Yeah, I mean it's all intermingled. You know, if you can make money out of acting illegally, then you're going to, you know, shark fins, any kind of endangered species. Absolutely. Fishing vessels have huge amount of carrying capacity. You know, why are people going to ignore and for all the reasons we've just talked about, they're really challenging to monitor. Why would they just be used for fish? Why would transnational organized crime people ignore that opportunity? They don't.
JARED BLUMENFELD: Putting transnational criminal activity aside for a moment, what's your view on how enforcement should work?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: Vast majority of policing, if we want to call it that, should be respectful engagement with the people who you are monitoring. And in fact, if you are disrespectful or if you are combative, if you are not trustworthy, then you're going to have the exact opposite impact. People are just going to flip you the middle finger and figure out how they can avoid you and continue to do what they're doing. But if you are respectful with how you are enforcing the laws, then you're going to have, you know, grandmas slapping their sons up the side of the head saying, what are you being an idiot for? Right? Because you're treating them with respect and that's always how it should be done. So the idea that there's this enforcement and then there's community engagement and that those two are separate is a very flawed and actually hurtful approach. They have to be fundamentally interlaced in your approach.
JARED BLUMENFELD: So, give us a kind of view into the next five, ten years…our fish populations going to rebound? Other regimes from marine protected areas to these regional treaties to burning boats, to the enforcement in gap on at the local level, like how do they all come together to create fish populations that are healthy?
MEAGHAN BROSNAN: There is so much fantastic work going on globally. I absolutely predict we're going to reach the 10% goal. There is now momentum building for 30% of the world's oceans to be protected by 2030. There is also at the same time a global recognition that that question of okay, it's on paper. How do we make this meaningful? You're not going to see an immediate uptick in fish populations. You are not going to see an immediate recovery of shark populations just because these things take time. But the gaps, the loopholes that people are per are taking advantage of are rapidly shrinking and the world continues to take the ocean much more seriously and recognize the value of the ocean and the need to preserve the oceans. Our mission is to end the illegal wildlife trade, and the location where we got started was the Galapagos Islands. And when we started there, there were tens of thousands of sharks being poached for their fins every year, totally unsustainable levels. And we partnered with the park to build their protections to meaningful levels, and now we're seeing the densest shark populations in the world in some areas and rebounding shark populations in others. It's not an easy place to enforce, right? It's not because it was easy. It was because people worked together, used the smart tools, used the smart procedures and are dedicated to continuing to work on the process. Nature is robust. If you get out of the way, if you just like give them a chance to recover, protect the key habitats, don't catch too many of them, they're going to recover. For the vast majority things, it's pretty impressive to watch.
JARED BLUMENFELD: A big thank you to Meaghan Brosnan, the marine program director of Wild Aid for talking with us today. I started our conversation with a lot of fear around the future of fish and ended up being inspired by how much is really being done from satellite monitoring of ships to enforcement collaboratives at the community level, to the creation of robust marine protected areas to Indonesia burning illegal fishing boats. Meaghan reminding me that nature is robust also gives me hope. In the next episode of Podship Earth, I get a mani-pedi and discover the host of toxic chemicals from formaldehyde to toluene that nail salon workers and clients like me are being exposed to. I talk with a nail salon owner who is working to make the nail care industry healthy for everyone. This is the 50th episode of Podship Earth so a special thanks to each of you that have been with us since the beginning. And to those of you who are joining the Podship Earth journey now, from the entire Podship Earth crew, sound engineer, Rob Speight, executive producer David Kahn and me, Jared Blumenfeld, have a great week.